Please be seated. -Hello, Your Honor.
-Hello. This is the case
ofLillard v. Holt.Thank you, Jerome.
Good day, everyone. [audience] Good day. Mr. Lillard, you say you were
forced to open this case after receiving
a message last year from Ms. Holt’s
20-year-old son, Delvin Holt. Ms. Holt, you say you have
unsuccessfully tried for 20 years to get Mr. Lillard to accept responsibility for
your son Delvin. And today is the day he is finally
going to accept the truth. -Is that correct?
-Yes, Your Honor. So, Mr. Lillard,
tell me about your relationship
with Ms. Holt. What do you remember?
How did you meet? Me and Ms. Holt
met back in 1997,
summer school, high school. She’d go out to eat
with my mom,
I’d take her out to eat.I was in love with her.-I cared about her.
You know, I experienced
a lot of things with Ms. Holt. She was the first
for a lot of experiences. And, uh… [Judge Lake] First?
Oh, your first for
a lot of experiences? -A lot of experiences.
-[audience laughing] A lot. Jerome, he said “a lot.” -[Lillard]
A lot of experiences.
-Seemed very experienced to me. Some I can’t even say,
but, you know… -[Ms. Holt] You seemed
very experienced to me.
-So, does that mean she was your first? You lost your virginity
to Ms.– -No, not quite. She was…
-[audience laughing] She was the first
for some other things. [audience exclaiming] [Ms. Holt] Well, Your Honor– I’m scared to ask
what other things. She was the first woman
I went downtown on. -Oh, my. Okay.
-[audience exclaiming] [Lillard] First woman, -experienced a lot of things.
That’s too much information. [Lillard]
But I’m just saying, I had a lot of admiration
for her, but she was also
my first heartbreak, first person I really
realized what pain was. -[audience] Aw.
-So, you know. And, you know, there’s not been
no back and forth fightin’ over the years,
just been a very cordial thing, but she made some mistakes that caused everybody
a lot of pain right now.
Me and him. Pain? -Nothing to do with him.
-[Judge Lake] So, Ms.– Ms. Holt, tell me
about the relationship.
What do you remember? Um, we was in a…
we was in a good relationship. Um, we really had– Didn’t have any problems. Um… Um, I loved Darius,
he know that. We did some things that we shouldn’t have been doing
at the time,and with those actionswe have Delvin now.-So–
-[chuckling] Okay. So, Mr. Lillard, I could see
your body language when Ms. Holt was testifying. What… What happened?
Where did things go wrong? Things went wrong
when I caught her cheating. -[audience exclaiming]
-[tsks] Oh. -Darius.
-Oh. What happened? On this very sunny,
bright day… [audience laughing] …Ms. Holt just decided
not to be at school. Wasn’t in our classes, we usually meet up
in class, hallways, whatever. She wasn’t there. So, you know, hey, me being me, I know something’s going wrong. So, I’ll tell you what,
let me skip school myself. I left school,
walked two miles… to her family’s home,
knocked on their door. No answer. -[Ms. Holt]
It wasn’t even like that.
-Looked through the peephole… It wasn’t even like that. -…see shadows
moving all around.
-[Ms. Holt] No. -Through the peephole?
-Tiptoeing towards the door. -[Ms. Holt] No.
-[Lillard] So I just parked myself, sat Indian style
for four or five hours -till they had to come out.
-[Ms. Holt] We wasn’t– It wasn’t even in there
that long, so you need to… Wait a minute.
Ms. Holt, hold on now. -This story is fascinating.
-[Ms. Holt] Mmm-hmm. So, you sat there -for four or five hours,
-Sure did. -[Ms. Holt] It was not
-[Judge Lake] Waiting on -Ms. Holt to come out?
Somebody was coming out, and I knew it was gonna be her
and somebody. So, what happened when
the door finally opened? The door opens up… I see a fella
that I end up knowing. [audience exclaiming] -I knew this guy. Me and him
never had any issues.
-He did not. He liked her,
and he’s shocked to see me, I’m shocked to see him.
Like… [chuckles] Darn, you know. He called out my name,
I called his name. -She’s standing behind him
and she’s mad because, yeah…
-[Ms. Holt] Your Honor… -…you caught. You weren’t
-Your Honor. [Lillard]
What is there to say? [Judge Lake]
So what does Ms. Holt do? That’s when
our relationship ended. She ain’t got nothing to say.
That’s when I ended it. -Oh, you ended it right there?
-[Lillard] I shut her down. That’s when
the relationship ended,
and that’s fine. -So, Ms. Holt…
-[Ms. Holt] Yeah. …who was in the house
with you? That was just a friend,
it’s just a friend. We was not in there for no, um, four hours. Matter of fact,
it was like -ten, fifteen minutes.
I left second period. -I left second period.
That’s early in the morning.
-[Ms. Holt] No. -I left second period.
-[Ms. Holt] No. -Second period’s
early in the morning.
-No, it was not. [Lillard] So you got
third period, fourth period, lunch time, fifth period
and sixth period. You was not even out there
that long. I know you wasn’t,
’cause I wasn’t even
in the house that long. -So–
-You was too busy,
you wouldn’t know. You don’t know. I wasn’t busy -doing nothing.
-She wouldn’t know. [Judge Lake] So, Ms. Holt, why did you finally
open the door? Uh, because we was
getting ready to leave out. -[Lillard snickers]
it was time for… for a family member
to come home. So I knew that I had to leave, and I knew he was outside
knocking on my door also. But if you have
a steady boyfriend, why are you leaving school
with another boy and going to lock yourself
in the house in the day time -and skipping school
to spend time with him?
-That’s true. That’s true. [Judge Lake]
I mean, this really
doesn’t make sense. That’s true.
That’s true, Your Honor. And this is
just me, personally. But if I’m knocking on
my boyfriend’s door, and I don’t care
if it’s ten minutes,
15 minutes, or four hours, we got a problem. -[Ms. Holt] Yes, exactly.
-Amen. If the door
doesn’t open right away– [Ms. Holt]
And I truly understand that. -[Lillard] Next thing
you know, she pop up pregnant.
-I was pregnant, Your Honor. I was already pregnant
before that even happened. -[Judge Lake] So,
after the door incident–
-That makes it even worse if you’re already pregnant
and you’re gonna
sleep with somebody else. No, we was together,
thank you very much. And you know that we was
having unprotected sex, so therefore, you cannot deny
and say that. So, you’re saying that
shortly after this encounter -at the house, where she
wouldn’t open the door…
-[Lillard] Mmm-hmm. …she says “I’m pregnant.” -[Lillard] There you go.
-You remember the day
she told you? Honestly, no. I tried to
block out my mind after that. I was hurt. Like I said,
that was my first time ever. Oh. So you had the puppy love heartbreak
over that? It was my first time ever
I blocked out my mind. -It was crazy. Mad crazy.
-[Lillard] It was a wrap.
I blocked out my mind. And I ain’t never forgave her
for it. [audience exclaiming] Uh, Darius was not present during any point
of my pregnancy, he was not present
any point of, uh, me… Him being born. -He was not there at all.
-Nope. But after Delvin was born,
did you let him know? I did. I did. -I did let him know.
What was his response? Um, of course,
he still was upset in his feelings, so therefore, he was, like,
denying him, he’s not mine. Darius knows that
Delvin is his child. [Lillard] Hmm. So, I want to hear
from Delvin now. -[Ms. Holt] Mmm-hmm.
-Delvin, what do you know
about Mr. Lillard? There’s a lot of conversation
about what was going on before you were born. What do you know about him? -Your Honor–
-Look at that. Your Honor,
my mom has always told me he was my father.
And I just basically came here to let him know
I don’t need a father. But I just really wanted
to come to find out if he is, so I can have closure,
me and my mama. So… [audience] Aw. -[Lillard] But,
-And they look just alike.I mean, you can tell
on the pictures,
they look just alike.-[audience applauding]
-[Ms. Holt]It’s not a secret.So… so, what has this denial
felt like? Your Honor, it really felt–
It hurt me a little bit.Any kids needs a father,
you feel me?A boy at that. So,
it was painful to know he didn’t want to deal with me
or nothing like that, -but it brushed off growin’ up.
-[audience] Aw. -‘Cause I made sure that
I did a great job…
-Yeah. …as a woman,
and as his mother and father, to take care of him. -[Lillard]Your Honor.
-[audience applauding] [Lillard]But I also…-[Ms. Holt clears throat]
-One of my other kids, who I had a DNA test with. [stuttering] She called me years later, she asked me, could I do this? Well, I’m–
I’m already in the system, -go down there, take him
down there and have him…
-That’s crazy. …tested. We did. -[Ms. Holt] They look
just alike, Your Honor.
-We did. We did. And I got a paper
saying that I could be excluded
as his father. -[Judge Lake] Really?
-[Ms. Holt] Oh. Do you remember this occasion
with this DNA test? Uh, I remember going down there
and taking the DNA. Me and Delvin going out
to take a DNA. I don’t know
if he showed up or not. I never received anything. When I called them there,
they had no records of him going down there
to take a DNA for him. Mr. Lillard, did you sign off
on this? [Lillard] Now that is
the strange part. When I called them, to get
the paperwork to show that -I done this already…
-[Ms. Holt] Ah, where is that? …there was nothing
in the system. But you did receive a result, -you said.
-[Lillard] I received
the result. That’s the only thing
I received. -And what did that paperwork
-[Ms. Holt mumbling] Had the– Had all of the numbers, then all the matches,
all that stuff, and down at the bottom it read “Darius J. Lillard could be
excluded as the father.” ‘Cause I’ve had
four of ’em done.
I’ve had four. -So, trust me, I know.
-[audience exclaiming wildly] [Judge Lake] Now, are you sure
that wasn’t a result -from maybe the other case?
-Oh, no. No, it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t. Trust me.
I’ve had four of ’em done. If there’s
any kind of discrepancy
with any woman I sleep with, I ain’t worry about no child.
Let’s go on down there.
Come on, let’s go.Ain’t no shame in my game.
I’d rather know our child
is mine now than later.And so, as you prepared
for your court case today, I mean, this is critical evidence. Did you contact the court or attempt to get copies
of that paperwork… so you could
bring them to court? Yes, ma’am, I did. -Uh, I did do–
What did they tell you? There was not– My name was under this case,
my name was under it, but there was no information,
there was somebody else
under there. It was somebody else’s test,
so, there we go. Now we know of
two other people. [Judge Lake] Wait a minute.
Somebody else? The guy that I caught her with, he’s not even
listed under there, but there was
somebody else’s name under that same file as mine. -So you’re–
-So that’s two people now.
Now that’s two people other than me. So that’s three people total
that I know she’s been with, so, I mean, you tell me
“do the math.” -You do the math.
-What? What are you
talking about? [Judge Lake]
So, hold on, hold on. Ms. Holt, did you test
another man? Yes… Yes, Your Honor.
Yes, I did. I had another guy tested,
and he was not the father. And that was because I was– I had–
I was dealing with him before me and Darius had got together. So it wasn’t his. Did you ever tell Mr. Lillard -you tested another man
-Yes, I did. -So he was– He was– Yes.
-I don’t recall it. -Yes, I did. So, he was aware.
-I don’t remember.
I don’t recall that. -Yes, I did.
-I don’t recall that. -He knew that.
-My name was under there, too, I thought
they might’ve mixed both– That’s got to be my test,
maybe he ain’t took one. -‘Cause I know
what I got in the mail.
-Mmm-mmm. Where’s the results? -Clerical errors…
Clerical errors can be made.
-Where? Where’s the results? [Judge Lake] So, Ms. Holt, did you ever test
the guy that was in the house -that day?
-We didn’t do anything, -so there was no need
to test him.
-[Lillard laughs] [Judge Lake] And you never had
a sexual relationship -with that person?
-[Ms. Holt] No. No. -No, Your Honor.
-Sex education was
more important than regular education
at the time. That was for you too also. [audience exclaiming] I kept… We kept
the relationship going
over the years, off and on, off and on
here and there,
I’d go over there… When was the last time
we had sex, Darius? It would’ve been last night
if you’d… [stutters] Yeah, it would’ve been
last night. -But–
-[Ms. Holt] Come on. -But I didn’t want to
come over there.
-[Lillard] But my focus is on this young man and me. Me having closure, and this
young man having closure. -If I thought more about
-I don’t want you. So, wait. You almost ended up
having sex last night? -No. No, we did not.
-If it was not about
this young man -and me–
-He wanted to come over, -but I didn’t want that.
-[audience exclaiming] She just can’t tell the truth.
Just pure point-blank. Really? What do I need to
tell the truth to you for? Who are you?
Like, you’re nothing.
You’re nothing but-Delvin’s dad.
but, Mr. Lillard,I need to ask you this.I can understand,
we’ve all experienced the puppy love that went wrong, and that first break up, oh, you just feel like
you’re not gonna get over it, and it seems like you haven’t. -Um–
-Mmm-hmm. [Judge Lake] But I need to say, do you really, truly believe
you are not Delvin’s biological father? Or are you just still so hurt because this was
your first big love that it’s a way to punish her to never believe her, it’s a way to punish her to never buy in
that this your son– You know what? I… The pressure,
I really wanted to ignore it, because I feel like
I have enough to ignore it.-That’s not it.
-[Ms. Holt huffs] [Lillard]If I’m his father,
I want to know.If I never got
the paper back then,I mean, I would’ve…
I left it alone. I got that paper,
I ain’t crazy. [stuttering]Just a lot that
been going on 20 years.And it’s not my fault.He’s paying for it,
I’m paying for it… -And it’s not my fault either.
-…at the end of the day. [Lillard] And that’s why
I’m here, because this
young man deserves that. That’s why I did it. [Judge Lake] All right. So… Mr. Holt, Delvin, what are you
hoping for today? Uh, I… Your Honor, I really,
I mean, I… Of course, I want to know
if he’s my father. It’d be good if he is. But at this moment,
it’s just like, -I just want closure.
-[audience] Aw. [Judge Lake]
You just want to know? -Yeah, I just want to know,
Your Honor, that’s it.
-That’s a lot of time though. -[Ms. Holt]
That’s a lot of time, 20 years.
-That’s a lot of time. [Judge Lake] All right. -It has been a lot of time.
-It has. [Judge Lake] And I feel like it’s time for us
to get the results. Jerome? [audience applauding] -Thank you.
-You’re welcome. These results were prepared
by DNA Diagnostics
and they read as follows. In the case of
Lillard v. Holt,when it comes to 20-year-old Delvin Holt, it has been
determined by this Court, Mr. Lillard, you… are not the father. [audience exclaiming] -Sorry, Mama.
-Okay, baby. It’s cool. Darius, I’m sorry.
I’m sorry for putting you through that.
I really am. -Sorry.
-[audience] Aw. [audience applauding] -[Judge Lake] Ms. Holt…
-Yes. …I want you to understand, and I hope this moment has
proven to you that your son’s gonna
stand by your side regardless. -Yes.
-And I say this to say it’s time for you to be honest. I believed that Darius -was, though.
-[Judge Lake] Well,
that’s not it, though. See, listen. That’s what
I’m talking about. DNA, it don’t deal in
hopes, prayers, bet my bottom dollar, swear on my so and so’s life. The DNA don’t deal in that. Mmm-hmm. I wasn’t…
It wasn’t like that. I wasn’t just out here just doing everybody.
I wasn’t doing– [Judge Lake] But you don’t know
who his father is. So, Mr. Lillard’s
not the father and the man
you previously had tested, -that’s on the file…
-[Ms. Holt] Mmm-hmm. -…is not the father.
So, there is a third.
-Right. [Judge Lake] So,
you were dealing with your… -Oh, I’m not projecting…
-[Ms. Holt] Mmm-hmm. -…shame on you.
-[Ms. Holt] Right. -What I am trying to do is
-[Ms. Holt] Right. -…from the shame.
-[Ms. Holt] I understand. Because you’re
holding yourself back -from being free of this.
-Mmm-hmm. -There was a man
that made this baby with you.
-[Ms. Holt] Right. And that -is his father.
-[Ms. Holt] Right. And that’s who we’re trying
to find. That’s all. -It’s for him.
-We will. [Judge Lake] Good.
And if you got a name, let’s get it done.
And we’ll be here
when you need us. -I wish you all the very best.
Dr. Jeff is waiting for you.
-[Ms. Holt] Thank you so much. -[Lillard] Thank you.
-Court is adjourned.