Bush Convicted of War Crimes at Tribunal


PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network.
I’m Paul Jay in Washington. There have been many attempts over the last
few years to prosecute former president Bush, vice president Cheney, and other senior members
of his administration for war crimes of various sorts. None of those until recently were successful.
Well, one of those prosecutions has now ended up in a conviction–in absentia, of course.
And that took place in Malaysia. Now joining us is one of the members of the
prosecutorial team [snip] Francis Boyle. He’s a professor of law at the University of Illinois
school of law, where he currently teaches courses on public international law and international
human rights. He was a part of the prosecution team, as I mentioned, that tried President
Bush–former president Bush, former vice president Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, their legal
advisers, in Malaysia, and were successful, as I said. Thanks for joining us. FRANCIS BOYLE: Well, Paul, thank you very
much for having me on, and my best to your audience. JAY: Thank you. So what were the charges?
And tell us a bit about the process. BOYLE: Well, the charges were twofold: first,
torture, and then, second, since torture in wartime constitutes war crimes, the second
charge were war crimes. There was four days of hearings by the prosecution and the defense.
And then, on the end of the fifth day, the tribunal issued a unanimous judgment to the
effect that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and five of their top lawyers advising them on this,
including Yoo, Bybee, Haynes, and Gonzalez, Addington, were personally responsible for
and guilty of torture and war crimes as defined by the Convention against Torture, to which
the United States government is a party, and the four Geneva conventions of 1949, to which
the United States government is a party as well. JAY: Right. Now, under whose auspices was
this process held? What kind of official status did it have? BOYLE: The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal
Foundation is a private organization set up and chartered under Malaysian law. So it is
a creature of Malaysian law. JAY: But most nonprofits and such can be registered
with the government. But let me–what I’m saying is it didn’t have direct government
endorsement of any sort, did it? BOYLE: No, it was like a U.S. corporation
being set up under U.S. corporation law. But it was not run by the government. Indeed,
my guess is the current government in Malaysia probably found it to be somewhat embarrassing,
since the current government in Malaysia is trying to get into good cahoots with the United
States government. But I can’t speak for them. JAY: And was there a defense offered? And
who offered it? BOYLE: Yes, a defense team was appointed for
them. It consisted of four or five Malaysian lawyers. And they did the best they could
with a very difficult case, because effectively Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld repeatedly incriminated
themselves publicly, both in their public statements and in their memoirs and otherwise,
in acts of torture. So it is hard to defend people who have already incriminated themselves,
but, you know, the defense did try. JAY: So what will be the effect of this? I
understand you have a separate process going at the International Criminal Court. So how
do these two relate to each other? And then, also, how do you have something going at the
International Criminal Court when the United States is not a signatory to it? BOYLE: Well, that’s correct. Over the years
now, I’ve tried to get Bush indicted three times in Canada, working with Canadian lawyers,
and then in Switzerland, where we scared Bush out of giving a speech in Switzerland because
he feared prosecution. It got back to Bush that we were going to try to get him indicted
in Switzerland for torture. So this is the first conviction anywhere of
Bush and the rest of them for torture and war crimes. Efforts have been made in Spain
and in Germany. So far as WikiLeaks points out, the United States government has applied
enormous pressure to both the Spanish governments and the German governments not to prosecute.
So, so far that hasn’t been done. But this is the first conviction. I think it’s a good
sign. We will be attempting to get this conviction enforced in all other states that are parties
to the Convention against Torture and all other states that are parties to the Geneva
Conventions of 1949, which in fact is almost every state in the world. JAY: But the fact that this is a nongovernmental
tribunal, it’s going to make it rather difficult to get governments to recognize it, isn’t
it? BOYLE: Well, it’ll be prima facie evidence
of their guilt, pretty much like any other conviction around the world. If you have individuals
convicted in one state, there’s not necessarily any obligation by another state to prosecute
those individuals. There could be an obligation to extradite if there is an extradition treaty
in effect. So this is a question of enforcement of foreign judgments. It depends on treaties
and statutes of the country involved. It also–international comity, principles of international legal
comity. JAY: So how were you able to get something
going at the ICC, and where is it at? BOYLE: Right. Well, numerous complaints have
been filed against Bush and the rest of them at the International Criminal Court, but they
got nowhere, because the United States government is not a party to the Rome Statute for the
International Criminal Court. And I was the first one to figure out a way around this
conundrum by filing a complaint against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Bybee,
Yoo, Tenet, and Rice for their policy of so-called extraordinary rendition, which, as I pointed
out to the ICC, is really a euphemism for the enforced disappearance of human beings
and torture, both of which are Rome Statutory crimes. And as I pointed out to the ICC, these
defendants have committed Rome Statutory crimes in Rome party states. Indeed most of Europe,
where these extraordinary renditions in part took place, are parties to the Rome statute,
as well as Afghanistan. And therefore I argued to the ICC that the court did have jurisdiction
to prosecute them and should exercise that jurisdiction. JAY: Well, how has the ICC responded to your
arguments? BOYLE: They responded to me saying they gave
me a docket number, they were inquiring into the matter, and they would get back to me
in writing. [crosstalk] JAY: How long ago was that? BOYLE: Pardon me? JAY: How long ago was that? BOYLE: That was two years. It’s going to take
time, obviously, because there’s massive documentation of the extraordinary rendition policy and
also the torture. So I believe they are engaging in a good-faith investigation of this complaint
and I will get an answer. JAY: Why do you believe that? BOYLE: Well, because everyone before me has
been rejected, and I have not been rejected in writing. They’ve all gotten letters from
the ICC prosecutor’s office saying, we don’t have jurisdiction to prosecute. That did not
happen to me, and they did promise a response in writing. In any event, we’ll be filing
the Kuala Lumpur judgment with the ICC, and I believe that will further support the complaint
I already have against Bush and the rest of them. JAY: Right. Now, what is the obligation, if
any, on the Obama administration in regards to all of this? I mean, when President Obama
was elected, he said it’s time to look forward, not back, which, you know, a lot of people
have suggested that would mean no crimes of any kind would ever be punished, ’cause it’s
always happened already. But is there any legal obligation on the Obama administration
to investigate/prosecute? And if so, the fact that they haven’t, what does that mean? BOYLE: Yes, the Obama administration has all
along had an obligation to prosecute Bush and the rest of them under the Convention
against Torture, including U.S. implementing legislation for that convention, making torture
a crime, a felony, and in some circumstances punishable by death if death has occurred,
which it has, although I don’t support the death penalty. But it does give you an idea
of the severity of the crimes. And also the Obama administration has an obligation to
prosecute these individuals under the four Geneva conventions of 1949, including the
U.S. implementing legislation, the U.S. War Crimes Act. So there is an obligation by Obama
to prosecute. Perhaps in a second term they might. We’ll just have to see what happens. You are correct to indicate that so far they
said they were looking to the forward and not to the past. I pointed out then to the
ICC prosecutor that this is definitive proof that the Obama administration is not going
to prosecute at this time and therefore satisfies the element known as subsidiarity, which requires
the ICC to defer to the national state for prosecution before the ICC steps in. And if
you already have Obama and Holder saying they’re not going to prosecute, that satisfies that
requirement and puts it firmly in the hands of the ICC. JAY: And is the Obama administration then
itself in violation of the law by not pursuing this? BOYLE: That’s correct. It’s clearly in violation
of the Convention against Torture and the four Geneva conventions of 1949, and, I regret
to report, technically this would make them accessories after the fact to these offenses. JAY: Right. Now, you focused on torture at
the Malaysia tribunals, but why not the issue of the Iraq War itself? Kofi Annan–it was
little late coming, but eventually said the war was illegal. What is a bigger war crime
than invading a country and killing several hundreds of thousands of people? BOYLE: Yes. Actually, we did that last November.
The charge on torture and war crimes was charge two. Charge one last November–I was out there
for that prosecution as well. We prosecuted–well, indicted and then prosecuted Bush and Blair
for committing a crime against peace by invading Iraq. And there were, again, close to four
days of hearings, there were a defense counsel, and a judgment did come back that Bush and
Blair were guilty of crimes against peace for their invasion against Iraq. And we are
making efforts to get that judgment enforced, too. Obviously, these things take time. Pinochet
stepped down as president of Chile, and it took eight years before he was finally hauled
to court there in Britain. So, you know, if you’re pursuing major war criminals such as
Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the rest of them, you’re not going to have justice
tomorrow. You know, you can take a look at the Balkans with Milosevic. I first went after
him in the World Court in 1993, and finally got him indicted by the International Criminal
Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for what he did in Bosnia in 2000. So that took seven
years, and he was finally on trial for these crimes. Unfortunately, he died before we were
able to get a final verdict. So, you know, you have to view these things as a long-term
effort. JAY: Thanks very much for joining us. BOYLE: Well, again, thanks for having me on.
And my best to Real News. Keep the good work up. JAY: Thank you. And thank you for joining
us on The Real News Network.

100 comments

  1. You will not take by proxy of 1949 when the ploy then is questionable to agenda more than human rights. Geneva never enter the rights category as in that nature. It was a communicated individual country join or no when they took up war with many countries that would not join. You may have overstepped the boundaries of contention. Peace as a chase is the same. To ensure death while as leadership is not usually attainable. When did you take over?

  2. Correction, it was later that human rights was asked to have a part in what the rights conditions are. The problem, the group did not believe in rights even until the 60s. It was a higher power that set some inquiry, and had a argument then. It's been the needs of other countries that ask for peaceable terms, not your enforcement. The only time a country is permitted to detain another's person is,when the life is at risk of public dispute and debate. Need I write more?

  3. They'll jail someone for smoking a joint, but killing innocent people all over the world including fucking over the Americans including every soldier who has died or injured is ok. Every politician is guilty because if they weren't these douche bags would already be in jail. It's all a joke exept for the injured and murdered all over the world

  4. You talk to much what about the Rwanda genocide of the Hutu you the UN give 1 million machete to kill over 1 million Hutuand the UN pardon them investigate that where is the ICC

  5. None of these people were ever convicted of anything they get away with whatever because of money and privilege evil has no boundaries

  6. More wasting time with this Bullshit Story’s Bush was never Charged with any of his Horrific Crimes a Paedophilia and Murderer of uncountable Crimes against Children 👶 All those So called Trials which’ was too take place unknowingly to the American people… Barbra Bush’s Send off Cost the American Taxpayers millions of $ dollars 💵 Father Bushes Cost the American Taxpayers even More… Those Scumbags Cannibals’ Chose their time too go, According to their LUCIFERIAN Calendar….Hillary Clinton the worse Criminal of this Century, Is Still walking amongst us, Still having her Blood drinking and flesh eating Rituals, So are the padestra Brothers and Company… Do not hold your Breaths, None of those Vermin are ever going too be locked 🔒 up anytime soon, Zionism Control took over America And its Leaders long time ago while you were Sleeping 😴

  7. I don't mean to ask a dumb question…but a tribunal in Malaysia ? Doesn't sound too legal. And why didnt anything come from it ??! And I'm asking because this video was made seven long years ago and still nothing !!!

  8. These guys Bush Colin Powell Donald Rumpfeld should be put in prison lucifers demons those who do the right things go 2 prison

  9. You know…it had to take someone like these folks to pull of the Las Vegas attack – its crazy these people look all "Christiany" but get together and plan mass murders

  10. Bush & dick Cheney are criminals war should put exuiton pentlhy and Bush and dick Cheney are freedom never jail huh not worry when Bush and dick Cheney die them go heaven gate hell for rest forever

  11. Them prosecute Gina haspel too. She is the author of the CIA torture program. Now she gets to be the CIA director. This administration is disgusting

  12. Its absolutely great news! But sadly, about as useful as the US Congress. It means nothing… absolutely nothing unless an arm of enforcement does anything… which will never ever happen. Waste of time. Sorry. We have current events that are far more pressing. 9/11 is now a launching pad for people to wake up. So they can understand why things are, the way they are, in the here and now. It is an event on the path to understanding what we face now. That one event… is the key… to understanding the past and the now. How these cult leaders operate.

  13. Bush had us fooled untill 9/11. Unlike Democrats, the republicans take out the garbage. Now how much longer are we going to wait for Obama and Clinton to be prosecuted?

  14. Doesn't put them in jail or hung in our country then you are wasting your time. Now if you want to bring your case to our court system please do so sooner the better.

  15. TheRealSnews what about Obama's drone strikes, just communist talk. Your CT, we don't care what you think or say MAGA

  16. Where do these idiotic fools come up with this crapola??? Seriously! As bad as the dem's with their delusions and lies.

    Moving on.

  17. Where are the Tribunals and why aren't there anyone being proscecuted for their crimes, Hillary is free, Obama is free, all these Cabal Trafficking , they are all in the Epstein filth and harming children & drugs but nothing is happening, where all these Generals serving on this panel not following through, we have Soros, Hillary, Obama, DOC crooks walking free with no results. The "People of America" are fed up to the gills with nothing done. I thought these people had guts to enforce arrests permantently or death??? We are sick and tired of these Democrats spewing Socializm , disgracing the Constitution, Our Freedoms, Lies daily all day long while serving in our Government, we also have these traitor Rhino Republicans guilty also right along with the Deep State corruption of America. WE WANT ACTION < NOT DAWDLING WHILE AMERICA & US GO DOWN THE TUBES……

  18. why not get the huge crimes not in wartime,like congress dems taking our country down,an breath down trumps shirt collar ever since he's been elected our president?I do honest think they owe it to him in 8 yrs,being president again ..the left hindered border ,kelped trump investigated.an to this day they still won't leave him alone.the dems has broke every law in the book an no procecuting.trump is not guilty.he can't even breath flooded with investigators.trump for 16 more years,an the left off his back..

  19. Waite till American citizens find out that the Bushes and Clinton’s put Obama a Android in the White House and that Obama was not voted in to office the Bushes and the Clinton’s and the FBI and DOJ and CIA and the pentagon were all aware that Obama was an Android and kept it quiet. Now Waite till America finds out Hilary Clinton too is a Android. I told President Trump about his Android the day before it was shown to America and the world.Trump was shocked.

  20. We 'WILL' have our day! Truth and light will ALWAYS overcome darkness and lies! Crimes against humanity and treason is what they need to be indicted for. Be a beacon of love and light to every life that you touch. Beautiful blessings to all.

  21. And Malaysia should be prosecuted for crimes against their own people. But I guess its easier to see evil in someone else than themselves.

  22. This was in 2012, and here we are nearing 2020, and……….I swear, everyone in the country should just go rob a bank, and just tell the judge that I am a Democrat in the know type guy, so just drop the case. Judge…ok have a nice day

  23. 9-11 was an inside job!! If people really believe that a plane hit the pentagon, you are in need of help! Watch the slow motion CCTV, it’s a damn drone missile! No wings, no fuselage, no bodies, come on!! Plenty more REAL evidence that this was done to ignite the Middle East war, plus to help the NWO plan. Our government needs to be shut down, by force from millions of real American Patriots

  24. These despicable individuals have escaped judgement of man, but they ALL will be judged and punished by the ultimate JUDGE.

  25. A GREAT BOOK to read about 9/11 that EXPOSES The Bush Administration is, "Death Of a Nation" It covers all the torture crimes or at least a vast majority of them & it also explains how The Bush Administration destroyed the torture videos & it also tells how the Bush Administration including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, & Bush himself are "Chicken Hawks" meaning when it was their time to serve, they chickened out. The book also covers the 9/11 attack & all the wars that preceded it. I say, when our country goes to war, let the Presidential Administration WALK THE FRONT LINES FIRST! Considering they're the reason why our military is always in wars in the first place. I bet you if those Chicken Hawk sumbitches in office ever had to WALK THE FRONT LINES FIRST, how much ya wanna bet this country would be in fewer wars if any at all? Oh sure, its always easy to send these brave men & woman off to war only to have em come back in a pine box. But I bet it wouldn't be so damn easy if the Presidential Administration had to go over FIRST! In the book, they even say how the government wouldn't even drape the American flag over those pine boxes because they wanted to "hide" the fact they were military & were now dead. It would be a bad "PR" move. So yeah, the entire Bush Administration should be hung by their balls so we can all throw lawn darts at em. But families of 9/11 should be given first dibs on that one. Replies from trolls & smart mouth punks will have the reply updates TURNED OFF!

  26. They should've beat the sob beyond recognition, but not surprisingly, his offspring should be beaten beyond recognition aswell. Infact beat all his offspring beyond recognition as an example

  27. Oh . . . Hillary Clinton was Secy of State from 2009 to 2013? Was she possibly involved in anything related to Obama who did nothing to prosecute Bush, Cheney and others?

  28. Hussein did chemical weapons dating back to the 80' s. They were transported by trucks to Syria. Hussein never dismantled the weapons as the world was told.

  29. I thought George Bush could not stoop any lower than orchestrating 9/11 but it seems that the Bush family are also heavily involved with Eli Lilly the company responsible for the inclusion of Ethyl Mercury into vaccines which is the cause of death and autism in thousands of children. As with GHW Bush's Zapata Oil Company, all major drug- and human trafficking operations involve oil platforms and helicopters, because nobody ever suspects or stops these helicopters.

  30. trump and the militias known as the oath keepers, the minute men project, and united constitutional patriots, need to be added as domestic white supremacist terrorist of the u.s. for all the unarmed black and brown brothers that have been murdered in cold blood by these police and militia  groups. the browning of america soon became the cleansing and torture of blacks and browns in america under trump and especially for the brown children in cages. the brown children in cages and the illegal choking of brown and black people to death by trumps police forces across the u.s. falls under human torture which these groups of people such as Kuala Lumpur war crimes tribunal foundation, the 1949 Convention Against Torture  which the u.s. is a party of and the Geneva convention which the u.s. is also a party of, around the world are condeming and voicing these criminal offenses by these people in the u.s. in poltical and government power. W.Bush, Cheney, the Clintons, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and all others involved in the genocide of the Iraqi people  during the false investigation of wmd in iraq and the torturing of diffrent people from diffrent areas of the world that the u.s. would kidnap, murder and in some cases, hold indefinitely in guantanamo bay, are wanted by the world courts for war crimes and torture against humanity. this is why gitmo was shut down under Obama. Bush was to give a speech in Switzerland a while ago and was warned that if he attended he would be arrested. So now they just take trips to Maine here in u.s. because they cannot leave the country for fear of prosecution for thier war crimes. so yeah, i dare trump to shoot migrants at the border so he can be added to the no fly anywhere in the world list. stupid motherfucker.

  31. I suggest we open up a worldwide tribunal. The findings summarily collated and presented to the American Public to see for themselves why we have "earned" such a poor score internationally.

  32. We could very well save ourselves from the time, money, drama and resistance it would take to put MANY MAJOR POLITICAL CRIMINALS behind bars. The international community might make it a swift, seamless, and just affair. Get em off the streets.

  33. Only inAmerica And would you walk free ? no you would not. No one above ? And this was seven years ago.
    Seven years. Sad

  34. Poppy Bush and Barbara Bush were both executed in 2018 as was John McCain. Next up, Boy Bush and Jeb Bush and many, many others. Anyone seen Bill Clinton or Tony Podesta? No?

  35. So… convicted in 2012. Put down like the evil, satanic hell hound he was in 2018. Six YEARS.. that bastard was allowed. Wonder how many children he and Barb the Bastard defiled during those six years. Clearly the cabal’s “JustUs” system was working for them very well. Until @POTUS DJT came along. Now we are one down, (two, if you count McStain), with many more to follow. Hopefully very soon.

  36. I have been against him for Geneva convention violations and I am just going to summon fire and quakes to slay 2666666666 or 1/3 man kind

  37. Fantastic!!! The Queen of england was found guilty by common law court for the disappearance of the children in canada!

  38. Remember when we all thought we were buying HD cameras? And now we can see they were clearly not. The lies never stop in this country.

  39. Why haven't all them been executed. Dick Cheney is more evil then all them Torture and murder of children. Get it through your f'n heads. They aren't human anymore

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